MAGNUS AND NAZEM

Lowetide
December 09 2012 02:41PM

Back on draft day 2009, the Edmonton Oilers and the Toronto Maple Leafs were just outside the "top drawer" zone and well inside a group of 7 or 8 quality players ranked 7-15. The Leafs chose Nazem Kadri, Edmonton went with Magnus Paajarvi--and since then, both fanbases have been waiting for their arrival. Did the lockout finally give them a chance to settle in and find the range?

Way back in 2009, the Leafs were sitting at #7 overall and on the lookout for an impact player. The names available were Kadri, MPS, Jared Cowen, Scott Glennie, Ryan Ellis, Dmitri Kulikov. There was a famous exchange between Brian Burke and Bryan Murray (Ottawa) at the draft; The Sens wanted to move up and take Kadri, but that was the fellow Brian Burke had his eye on. Poor Kadri. Had the Senators drafted him, the player wouldn’t have as much pressure on him. An article in the Toronto Sun  in September 2010 gives us a nice glimpse into management’s feeling toward the player:

  • “He needs to realize the battle he’s in,” Wilson said after the Leafs’ 3-2 shootout win over the Philadelphia Flyers. “We’re not giving him the job. He has to outperform at least two or three of those four to earn a spot.”

Kadri would turn 20 two weeks later. Since that day, Kadri has been close to a point-per-game player (102 points in 113 games) and has been up to the NHL a few times (51, 8-11-19). This season, with no NHL to focus on, Kadri has emerged as a quality offensve option:

  • Overall: 21, 6-15-21 1.00ppg
  • Evens: 21, 5-8-13 .619
  • PP: 21, 1-7-8 .381
  • PK: 21, 0-0-0 .000

That's a nice line from Kadri. He's a skill player with good speed and hands, maybe a little shy in the size department but also possessing some ability to agitate. Credit to Leafs' management, with maybe a small hat tip to the lockout, for being patient enough to allow the young man to find his way.

And for crying out loud don't trade him!

MAGNUS

In the fall of 2010, Magnus Paajarvi made the NHL Oilers and scored 15 goals as a rookie. Paajarvi saw significant time on the PP (3-6-9, 11th best total for rookies that year) and at evens (12-13-25, 12th best total for NHL rookies 10-11). However, Paajarvi got lost in the mix the following season and ended up in OKC trying to regain his confidence and scoring touch.

This season, it was thought that Paajarvi might get a chance to play with Ryan Nugent-Hopins and Jordan Eberle on the top line, and he did for a game. However, early on he was replaced by Teemu Hartikainen and has been playing on the 2line since then.

  • Overall: 21, 3-12-15 .715
  • Evens: 21, 2-6-8 .381
  • PP: 21, 1-6-7 .333
  • PK: 21, 0-0-0

Paajarvi is posting good numbers on the powerplay, but the even strength numbers don't imply a future on an NHL skill line--the same result as a year ago. It is likely (and I think many have felt this way for a time) Paajarvi's NHL role will be outside the scoring lines. Certainly Teemu Hartikainen has shown to be the more talented offensive player over the long term. Paajarvi's best position as an NHL player is probably as a 2-way type on a 3line, using his speed on the forecheck and to haul ass on the back check, while chipping in even strength points when opportunities arise.

And he is, at this point, a possible trade asset.

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

Not everything works as planned. In Toronto, Nazem Kadri looked like a failure in 2010 fall and I believe you can make a case that he's deserving of a legit shot on a skill line with the Leafs as of this writing.

For Magnus Paajarvi, I believe that opportunity on the skill line has been lost to Teemu Hartikainen, but that the young man might fit well in a secondary, support role. The Oilers may send him away in the next few months, but there's an opening for a smart speedster on the 3line and Magnus Paajarvi could be a perfect fit.

Lets talk in two more years.

C2a6955161684b5e3189319acfa5ebe4
Lowetide has been one of the Oilogosphere's shining lights for over a century. You can check him out here at OilersNation and at lowetide.ca. He is also the host of Lowdown with Lowetide weekday mornings 10-noon on Team 1260.
Avatar
#1 RexLibris
December 09 2012, 07:40PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
2
props

@DSF

Honestly? Yeah, probably. They are all decent potential players at this point in their careers, but none is a clear and outright improvement over every other possible option. We aren't talking about taking Kelly ahead of Doan or Iginla here.

Paajarvi at #10 should be taken in the context of his draft year, though, not against other players taken historically in that area. This year, a player at #10 could be better than a player taken at #6 last year or the year following this one.

Are you suggesting that Paajarvi was a blown pick? If so, I'd like to hear your rationale on that.

Avatar
#2 dougtheslug
December 09 2012, 09:35PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
2
props

My sweet lord, this is boring.(Removes glasses, massages bridge of nose). Please, please, end the lockout so these tedious arguments can be settled on the ice. (goes back to reading ON)

Avatar
#3 Michael
December 09 2012, 03:19PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

Willy Lidstrom type of guy I would compare him to.MP will make the club in some capacity. Most likely when Ben Eager exits stage left. I would not be in a hurry to throw him in in any type of trade deal. A little patience will pay dividends with MP IMO. Maybe he is the guy who spends 3-5 seasons in the minors before he gets a shot. Detroit's Zetterberg paid his dues in the AHL. So have alot of other guys. No shame in continuing to learn and improve. Look at what history has shown us with guys who were pegged sure fire first round picks and never turned out. The Oiler's own draft history has shown how big a crap shoot the draft is. Its the luck of the draw at times.

Avatar
#4 Mike
December 09 2012, 03:32PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

Dan Cleary...

Avatar
#5 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 07:13PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

@DSF

Again just stupidity,

Hands has nothing to do with shooting percentage. That is a combination of his shot and his hockey sense. Did you see some of the stuff he did at the oilers skills competitions. Hands is a completely qualitative thing.

Secondly. You can teach defense yes. But you cant teach hockey sense. And sorry Kadri just doesnt have enough to be an impact in the NHL. And with his skill set he is not going to be an effective player defensively. You can have an opinion that kadri is better than MPS, but dont say such stupid things in your comments,

Your head is so far up your ass.

Avatar
#6 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 08:20PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

@DSF

so the plus minus is pretty stupid, Gagner has been on the worst team since he was there, maybe this has something to do with his unable to break out over 50 pts, top that with kdri playing like 50 nhl games and that is pointless.

I never said MPS had better skills than Kadri. Mps allready has a defensive side to his game, and a lot bigger of a player usually equated with a 3rd line player. That is why he can fill a role. Does he really need more than 10 goals a year playing behind those other guys.

Kadri on the other hand cant even make a bottom 5 team. Stickhandling in your own zone is not what is required to play a defensive game.

Hands has always been equated with stickhandling abitlity. Shooting has always been shooting. Passing and playmaking and getting to the net has been associated with vision. I will agree that Kadri has more of these skills, but to say that MPS doesnt have hands because he doesnt pick his shot selection as good as eberle, or doesnt convert because his shot isnt as good as hall is wrong. The kid has soft hands, but like kadri too, he cant seem to make use of them in the NHL>

Avatar
#7 Will
December 09 2012, 08:40PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

Hmm, he's great on the pk, smart defensively at evens, and draws a ton of penalties. For a team that is going to win in the regular season on the power play, I think Magnus is a chess piece. He's a strategy card for a coach like Kruger to utilize. If this was a money ball scenario, the coach would look at how many times we score on the power play, and how many power plays Magnus draws. I think that alone is reason to have him on the team. The fact that he's also a defensive first player makes him a great 3rd line option, that can move up and down the depth chart depending on injuries.

The words utility player come to mind, and those players are instrumental for long term success. True, I love watching Harti hit everything out there, drive to the net, and be impossible to rub off the puck, but I think the Oilers especially could find a great use for a player with Magnus's skill set. And if he ever returns to his 15 goal form, well then that's just about as good of a thrid line winger you could ask for.

Avatar
#8 Coco Crisp
December 09 2012, 09:19PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

@DSF Do you consider how much larger Magnus' hands are as compared to Kadri?

Show the work buddy.

Avatar
#9 @Oilanderp
December 10 2012, 12:05AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

Oh god.

*spins revolver chamber with one bullet*

*click*

Damn.

Avatar
#10 dougtheslug
December 10 2012, 01:11AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props
DSF wrote:

Actually, it is being settled on the ice.

It's not really going very well for Pajaarvi.

If the question is "Who can better manipulate obscure statistics to argue about how outcomes of current performance in present scenarios could possibly lead to predictable outcomes with respect to measurable performances in hypothetical future scenarios?" then sure, you guys are doing a helluva job answering it. If the question is, "Who is having the better NHL career?" then, my friend, that has to answered on NHL ice, which, sadly, is empty.(Removes glasses again, massages bridge of nose, shuts off computer.)

Avatar
#11 Wax Man Riley
December 10 2012, 01:12AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

How about that Horcoff contract...

Avatar
#12 Brad
December 10 2012, 03:50AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props

Why do people argue with dsf? He's just here to piss people off.

Avatar
#13 Time Travelling Sean
December 10 2012, 09:51AM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
1
props
DSF wrote:

No need to delve into obscure stats...just take a look at goals, assists and points.

In the AHL, what has he done in the NHL? Oh right, he hasn't, along with MPS, had a large enough sample size to determine what they can be.

Avatar
#14 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 02:58PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

Kadri has always been decent in the ahl, he is a one trick pony and wont be a 40 pt player in the nhl. Serves them right for picking out of spite. Also serves toronto sun right for writing an article that he would be mentioned in the same manner as crosby and ovechkin. I guess they might be correct now though, "crosby ovechkin and kadri all still locked out" is about the only time you will here the three of them together.

Thank fully magnus could be a third line player. Dont see any team trying Kadri in that role if he fails as a second liner.

Avatar
#15 HardBoiledOil
December 09 2012, 04:11PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

we absolutely have to find spots one of these days up front for Hardy, Magnus, Lander and Pitlick and it does not bode well down the line for Smyth, Jones, Eager and Belanger. my 2 cents.

Avatar
#16 michael
December 09 2012, 04:25PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
HardBoiledOil wrote:

we absolutely have to find spots one of these days up front for Hardy, Magnus, Lander and Pitlick and it does not bode well down the line for Smyth, Jones, Eager and Belanger. my 2 cents.

If Jones showed consistently Claude Lemieux type of grit he would be a second line player.He plays so soft and seldom instigates anything that a trading him would not be a great loss for this team.He and MP are interchangeable at this point. Eager is a bum. I'd tell him that to his face.He wastes his talent. He is more interested in getting paid than in the pursuit of excellence. A slacker. The difference between him and Ryan Smyth at the same age is that Smyth knew he needed to work hard to become that guy.Eager.Couldn't give a cr2&.Belanger?Square peg.Round Hole. If Lemaire were still coaching I would send him to that team. Just prolonging his misery by having Krueger say things like "clean slate" or "new start". Belanger is not going to change what he is and its better for both Edmonton and him to part ways sooner than later.

If its me I make Jones a priority trade whence all this CBA stuff gets done.Move him to a team like the Jackets who could use his speed and PK skills. Take the pick and move on. Eager is a buy out guy for me. Eat his salary and move on. Belanger gets you whatever.Onward and upward.

Avatar
#17 coco crisp
December 09 2012, 06:12PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

We all know, once Oil trade MP, he will be a stud for someone else. I pray to god we sleep on this kid... Too much potential to dump away to Detroit only to see him become something he could have been for us. Aka: Dan cleary, Kyle Brosziak, Curtis Glencross, ect ect ect. Not superstars by any means, but very effective into the success of other teams.

Avatar
#18 GXL
December 09 2012, 06:25PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

I'm surprises at how quick everyone is to write-off MPS. He maybe hasn't developed at the same speed as Eberle and Hall (Gagner too for that matter... but that's another story).

Here's a player that lead his team in scoring last season in 2011-12 and has been one of my perennial picks mid round hockey draft pick since 2009... Loui Eriksson. If you look at his early years there was nothing that would say that he would be a 60+ player in his prime.

21 2006-07 NHL 59 6 13 19 0.32 21 2006-07 AHL 15 5 3 8 0.53 20 2005-06 AHL 78 31 29 60 0.77 19 2004-05 Swe 39 5 9 14 0.36 19 2004-05 WJC 6 2 3 5 0.83 18 2003-04 Swe 46 8 5 13 0.28 18 2003-04 WJC 6 1 1 2 0.33 17 2002-03 Swe Jr. 30 16 15 31 1.03 17 2002-03 WJ18 6 5 2 7 1.17

And if you compare that to MPS: 21 2012-13 AHL 20 2 11 13 0.65 20 2011-12 NHL 41 2 6 8 0.20 20 2011-12 AHL 34 7 18 25 0.74 19 2010-11 NHL 80 15 19 34 0.43 19 2010-11 WC 9 2 5 7 0.78 18 2009-10 Swe 49 12 17 29 0.59 18 2009-10 WC 9 5 4 9 1.00 18 2009-10 WJC 6 3 7 10 1.67 17 2008-09 Swe 50 7 10 17 0.34

There's nothing that jumps out that MPS can't be an Eriksson for the Oilers. Of course there's a lot of things that need to go right as well, but way too early to write off a 6'2" 208lbs winger with great speed, decent hands and a good head for the game. He may not end up being on the top line but he will be in the top six.

Avatar
#19 RexLibris
December 09 2012, 06:32PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

My take on comparing Kadri and Paajarvi has me leaning towards Paajarvi for the reasons similar to your prospect rankings, LT: range of skills. Kadri does one thing reasonably well, whereas I think that Paajarvi does a wider range of things to a lesser but still valuable level.

Redrafting, I'd probably still go with Paajarvi over the others. As I often say with prospects, and you've mentioned at the end here, still too soon to start second-guessing.

Avatar
#21 DSF
December 09 2012, 06:34PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@GXL

Decent hands?

His career shooting percentage is around 6%.

That's dreadful for a forward.

69 NHL DEFENSEMEN had a shooting percentage higher than 6% last season.

Avatar
#22 RexLibris
December 09 2012, 06:38PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

This is off-topic but, I just had a look at that scoresheet from the OKC/SA AHL game tonight and Hall had seven shots. That is one heck of a lot of rubber for one player.

One concern I've developed this season, even when he scores or assists, Hartikainen will finish a night with a -. His defensive game is going to have to improve. I wonder if this is the one final area that Paajarvi continues to dominate over him.

Avatar
#23 Klima's Mullet
December 09 2012, 06:42PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

I would rather have MPS...not sure why...I'll wait for DSF to tell me why I'm wrong. I feel like Magnus will turn out to be a key ingredient in the chemistry of a winning team.

Avatar
#24 RexLibris
December 09 2012, 06:43PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Lowetide wrote:

Rex: Agreed. And based on how bad the Oilers 3 and 4lines have been, I think Paajarvi could really be a help there.

The Oilers, absent a Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins or Yakupov could be really lamenting Paajarvi's supposed lack of development. The fact that they can take some time and let him develop into a strong 3rd line option saves both the player and the organization some face.

I'm not suggesting that he was a bad selection, but the expectations outstripped reality, in my opinion.

@DSF - I believe that was in reference to his amazing repetoire of card and coin trick.

;-)

Avatar
#25 DSF
December 09 2012, 06:46PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
RexLibris wrote:

My take on comparing Kadri and Paajarvi has me leaning towards Paajarvi for the reasons similar to your prospect rankings, LT: range of skills. Kadri does one thing reasonably well, whereas I think that Paajarvi does a wider range of things to a lesser but still valuable level.

Redrafting, I'd probably still go with Paajarvi over the others. As I often say with prospects, and you've mentioned at the end here, still too soon to start second-guessing.

You can teach defense and Kadri has improved tremendously according to Eakins.

Are you sure you would take Paajarvi over players like Kulikov, Holland, Rundblad, Leddy, Johanssen, Palmieri and O'Reilly?

While Paajarvi MAY have value as a third line player IF he adapts his game to that role, I don't think there is much doubt drafting a 3rd line player, maybe, 10th overall sure looks like a whiff.

Avatar
#26 DSF
December 09 2012, 06:47PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Klima's Mullet wrote:

I would rather have MPS...not sure why...I'll wait for DSF to tell me why I'm wrong. I feel like Magnus will turn out to be a key ingredient in the chemistry of a winning team.

Pretty hard to argue with someone who "doesn't know why" he thinks something.

Avatar
#27 Rama Lama
December 09 2012, 06:55PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
coco crisp wrote:

We all know, once Oil trade MP, he will be a stud for someone else. I pray to god we sleep on this kid... Too much potential to dump away to Detroit only to see him become something he could have been for us. Aka: Dan cleary, Kyle Brosziak, Curtis Glencross, ect ect ect. Not superstars by any means, but very effective into the success of other teams.

Ditto!

MPS is very close to being an offensive top six player........the only thing he needs to figure out is that in the NHL you can't score many pretty goals. Once he develops a natural shoot first mentality, this guy will be a solid NHL player.

I'm sorry but the coaching he is receiving suggests he is not listening to the coaches.......at least not intently. Not sure what the problem is but what I do know once he is traded we will all regret this decision.

Avatar
#28 atleastwehavethekhl
December 09 2012, 07:08PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

He has to be able to do SOMETHING with those wheels. After seeing him live against the Marlies last year in the playoffs, it was obvious he was by far the best Barons skater.

But the grit may never come. And as a third line player, grit is an absolute necessity. His shot sucks, too, and his "I love the perimeter" attitude seems like it would play well in the 2nd tier SEL.

I wait for him just for his wheels. But if he's the part of a major center or defenceman trade, I let him go. Dan Cleary? Maybe.

More likely Andrew Cogliano, though.

Avatar
#29 Klima's Mullet
December 09 2012, 07:11PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@DSF

Good point...no offense intended. I meant that his metrics do not point to him outproducing Kadri on a statistical comparison, but I don't think either player will be a top six in the show. I think MPS will be a more versatile player due to his speed and willingness to play a role. Not sure Kadri has the jam to accept a limited role and thrive. Time will tell.

Avatar
#30 DSF
December 09 2012, 07:21PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Klima's Mullet wrote:

Good point...no offense intended. I meant that his metrics do not point to him outproducing Kadri on a statistical comparison, but I don't think either player will be a top six in the show. I think MPS will be a more versatile player due to his speed and willingness to play a role. Not sure Kadri has the jam to accept a limited role and thrive. Time will tell.

I would think the jury is still out on Kadri but he is certainly showing some good signs.

He's currently 17th in AHL scoring at almost 1PPG and is +4.

According to Eakins, he lacks consistency and that certainly has kept many an AHL player out of the NHL.

As for Pajaarvi, many, many young players had speed to burn but couldn't carve out a niche in the NHL.

If he is going to succeed as a third line player, he's going to need to add some grit to his game and I'm not sure he has what it takes.

I've always thought he was very much like Jannik Hansen of the Canucks but Hansen hits everything that moves.

We'll see.

Avatar
#31 DSF
December 09 2012, 07:24PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
They're $hittie wrote:

Again just stupidity,

Hands has nothing to do with shooting percentage. That is a combination of his shot and his hockey sense. Did you see some of the stuff he did at the oilers skills competitions. Hands is a completely qualitative thing.

Secondly. You can teach defense yes. But you cant teach hockey sense. And sorry Kadri just doesnt have enough to be an impact in the NHL. And with his skill set he is not going to be an effective player defensively. You can have an opinion that kadri is better than MPS, but dont say such stupid things in your comments,

Your head is so far up your ass.

Always pleasant to hear from you...you're such a class act.

"hands has nothing to do with shooting percentage"

Alrighty then...

Exactly what in Kadri's "skill set" would prevent him from becoming an effective player defensively?

Don't hurt yourself.

Avatar
#32 TigerUnderGlass
December 09 2012, 07:28PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@Michael

Detroit's Zetterberg paid his dues in the AHL.

Huh. On which AHL team did he "pay his dues"? It's amazing there is no record of this.

Avatar
#33 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 07:34PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@DSF

his skill set is puck handling and passing, so to make those things work in the nhl you need a lot of vision and hockey sense. He is not developing that into an nhl level.

He is exactly what you complain about our prospects for defensively. He cant win a face off, he is slim and small for his frame, so he wont be able to grind or battle down low. His mind has been developed to be an offensive player. And for a kid his age to make the complete switch to a defensive number three center role is very hard. Teams dont start that with a player like this until he has a solid offensive season in the nhl. Which he hasnt and wont unless lucky two years from now.

You complain about gagner, but you think Kadri is going to be number one or two center. Maybe for the leafs he might be, but man Ill take a 40+ pt 68gp per guy over a guy who gets 15 sorties a year and 5 points.

Please explain to me how hands is related to shooting percentage. Typical hands guys tend to be playmakers. Didnt omark, brunstrom, and schremp have really good hands.

Stamkos has good hands but not elite, great shooter. Alex tanguay same thing but best shooting percentage since the look out. Dont think anyone says hey Tanguays elite hands make him such a great goal scorer.

Avatar
#34 DSF
December 09 2012, 07:37PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@TigerUnderGlass

I'm guessing it's another Zetterburg.

The one we know scored 22 goals and 44 points as an NHL rookie as 21 year old.

Avatar
#35 RexLibris
December 09 2012, 07:42PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
DSF wrote:

I'm guessing it's another Zetterburg.

The one we know scored 22 goals and 44 points as an NHL rookie as 21 year old.

That'd be Frank Zetterberg of the Poughkeepsie Zetterbergs. Good AHLer, just couldn't cut it in the bigs.

Avatar
#36 DSF
December 09 2012, 07:47PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@They're $hittie

What makes you think he isn't developing "vision" and "hockey" sense.

He seems to have enough of both to have outscored Paajarvi 21-15 in the AHL.

I certainly don't think his future is as a defensive third line centre as you suggest. He's much more likely to be a second line centre in the NHL if he makes it.

He's not the biggest guy at 6'0" 185 but he's bigger than Gagner and a better skater to boot.

Their junior stats are close so it will be interesting to see how Kadri's skills translate to the NHL.

As I said earlier, the just is still out.

BTW, if you need me to explain how "hands" and shooting percentage are related, I really can't help you.

Avatar
#37 DSF
December 09 2012, 07:48PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
RexLibris wrote:

That'd be Frank Zetterberg of the Poughkeepsie Zetterbergs. Good AHLer, just couldn't cut it in the bigs.

Yes, that's him.

Currently playing for the Mexico City Cartel of the Latin League.

Avatar
#38 DSF
December 09 2012, 07:52PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@RexLibris

Too early to call it a blown pick but it's certainly getting close.

I agree with your method of draft analysis and it's certainly starting to look like there were many better options that Paajarvi at #10.

I was yelling at my TV set for them to select Kulikov after taking a peek at Paajarvi's stats in the SEL.

Kid has never been able to score much at any level.

Expecting him to do it in the best league in the world is just silly.

Avatar
#39 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 07:56PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@DSF

So 6'0" 185 is bigger than 5'11" 195?

Kadri's junior stats post draft year are no where near Gagner,s pre draft and Gagner was about as young as you can be for a drafted player.

Never said that he wasnt better than paajarvi, you trashed paajarvs shooting percentage and basically calling him no value. My argument was he would be a better nhler because he can fill a role.

You would be content with a 30pt center in kadri (playing with limited talent) but not a 45pt one in gagner playing behind 4 elite wingers, just because he is an inch shorter?

The reason I say he is not developing hockey sense is because everytime he jumps to the NHL he is brutal and his skills disappear.

And please tell me how good hands for stickhandling increases your shooting percentage. A good shot can do this, or vision to get to the proper spots. But i dont get that because you can do some you tube stuff with your stick with no one on the ice or playing against a bunch of teenagers increases your shooting percentage in the nhl.

Avatar
#40 DSF
December 09 2012, 08:07PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

NHL career shooting %

Kadri - 10.1

Gagner - 10.3

Paajarvi - 6.6

One of these is not like the others.

NHL Career Plus/Minus

Kadri -2

Gagner -42

Pajaarvi -20

One of these is not like the others.

You can keep saying Pajaarvi can "fill a role" better than Kadri until your face turns blue but there is absolutely no evidence to support it.

"Hands" are generally considered to be how proficient a player is at scoring.

If you have now invented a "Stickhandling Coefficient" I would certainly be interested in how you arrived at assessing that and how and why you believe Paajarvi is superior to Kadri at that skill.

Please show your work.

Avatar
#41 DSF
December 09 2012, 08:42PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@They're $hittie

Are you suggesting the Toronto Maple Leafs are a much better team than the Oilers have been in the past few years?

If so, not by much.

Let's look at some other stats.

GAON/60 in the NHL.

Kadri:

11/12 1.86

10/11 1.76

Pajaarvi:

11/12 1.62

10/11 2.94

Gagner:

11/12 2.24

10/11 3.81

It would appear that, based on what we can measure, Kadri is certainly holding his own defensively.

Of course, these players are used in different ways by their coaches so it's not apples to apples by any means.

Also, I would point out that Paajarvi can't make a bottom 5 team either since he was banished to the AHL in a season that the Oilers finished 29th.

Please don't hesitate to prove that Paajarvi has better "stickhandling ability" than Kadri.

Avatar
#42 DSF
December 09 2012, 08:47PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Will wrote:

Hmm, he's great on the pk, smart defensively at evens, and draws a ton of penalties. For a team that is going to win in the regular season on the power play, I think Magnus is a chess piece. He's a strategy card for a coach like Kruger to utilize. If this was a money ball scenario, the coach would look at how many times we score on the power play, and how many power plays Magnus draws. I think that alone is reason to have him on the team. The fact that he's also a defensive first player makes him a great 3rd line option, that can move up and down the depth chart depending on injuries.

The words utility player come to mind, and those players are instrumental for long term success. True, I love watching Harti hit everything out there, drive to the net, and be impossible to rub off the puck, but I think the Oilers especially could find a great use for a player with Magnus's skill set. And if he ever returns to his 15 goal form, well then that's just about as good of a thrid line winger you could ask for.

Thanks to Behind the Net, we know exactly how many penalties are drawn.

Penalties drawn/60

Paajarvi:

10/11 - 0.80

11/12 - 1.00

Kadri:

10/11- 2.20

11/12 - 1.60

There is little doubt that Kadri is a more valuable "chess piece" by this metric.

Next.

BTW, Pajaarvi recorded 15 goals in a season where he played the second most minutes of any forward on the Oilers due to injury.

He's unlikely ever to get that opportunity again.

Avatar
#43 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 08:52PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@DSF

again i never said that MPS has better stickhandling. You said he had no hands and I disagreed. Go watch the oilers skills competition.

Gagner, played much tougher minutes than Kadri, nuff said there.

And your right Magnus cant make a bottom 5 team either, but there are a lot more elite players ahead of him in that area on the oilers. Same cant be said for Kadri.

Avatar
#44 DSF
December 09 2012, 09:04PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
They're $hittie wrote:

again i never said that MPS has better stickhandling. You said he had no hands and I disagreed. Go watch the oilers skills competition.

Gagner, played much tougher minutes than Kadri, nuff said there.

And your right Magnus cant make a bottom 5 team either, but there are a lot more elite players ahead of him in that area on the oilers. Same cant be said for Kadri.

You may want to take a look at the scoring numbers of Toronto's "elite" forwards compared to the Oilers.

Kessel 82

Eberle 76

Lupul 67

Hall 53

Grabovski 51

Hopkins 52

Bozak 47

Gagner 47

Amazing isn't it?

Qual Comp:

Kadri - 0.018

Gagner - 0.032

Kadri played tougher competition than Gagner.

Avatar
#45 They're $hittie
December 09 2012, 09:08PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@DSF

there is a slight difference in age there, bozak and lupul wont have seasons like that again. and statistically it looks like kadri played tougher minutes but he didnt.

Avatar
#46 DSF
December 09 2012, 09:16PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
They're $hittie wrote:

there is a slight difference in age there, bozak and lupul wont have seasons like that again. and statistically it looks like kadri played tougher minutes but he didnt.

You have no idea what Bozak and Lupul will do in the future and neither do I.

Just as you have no idea what Gagner and Hall will do.

Kadri DID play tougher competition although his minutes were more limited.

While Gagner has made some progress defensively, he's still a liability.

GAON/60

Gagner 2.24

Kadri 1.86

Avatar
#47 DSF
December 09 2012, 09:23PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
Coco Crisp wrote:

@DSF Do you consider how much larger Magnus' hands are as compared to Kadri?

Show the work buddy.

No problem.

2012/13 AHL

Kadri 6G 15A 21P SH% 9.8

Paajarvi 3G 12A 15P SH% 5.7

Large hands do the Devil's work :)

Avatar
#48 David S
December 09 2012, 09:45PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

BUT WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN???

Avatar
#49 DSF
December 09 2012, 09:48PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props
dougtheslug wrote:

My sweet lord, this is boring.(Removes glasses, massages bridge of nose). Please, please, end the lockout so these tedious arguments can be settled on the ice. (goes back to reading ON)

Actually, it is being settled on the ice.

It's not really going very well for Pajaarvi.

Avatar
#50 Coco Crisp
December 09 2012, 10:21PM
Trash it!
0
trashes
Props
0
props

@DSF You're Wrong.

Comments are closed for this article.