Nation Network 2013 Mock Draft: Day 2

Jonathan Willis
June 13 2013 10:14AM

Photo: Alaney2k/Wikimedia

Yesterday we asked readers network-wide to vote their choices for the first 10 slots in this year’s entry draft. The results are in; which teams landed which players?

The Top 10

1. Colorado Avalanche: Seth Jones. There was a strong push by Nathan MacKinnon in what most readers see as a two horse race; in the end the potential franchise defenceman won out.

2. Florida Panthers: Nathan MacKinnon. Florida adds a dynamic centre who likely would have been the first overall pick last summer.

3. Tampa Bay Lightning: Jonathan Drouin. While there are rumours that the Lightning will go off the board a little and take a chance on Valeri Nichushkin, the voters here play it safe, drafting Jonathan Drouin, the final member of the consensus upper-tier in this year’s draft.

4. Nashville Predators: Aleksander Barkov. No surprise here either; the big centre had a stellar season in Finland and will become a cornerstone piece in Nashville.

5. Carolina Hurricanes: Valeri Nichushkin. Nichushkin was the first player to really elicit a range of reaction – some had him ranked first overall; others outside the top-10 entirely. Ultimately he goes to Carolina with the fifth overall pick.

6. Calgary Flames: Sean Monahan. Calgary is expected to take a big centre, and Monahan certainly qualifies. He is an excellent prospect with a wide range of skills and won a three-way race against Lindholm and Nurse.

7. Edmonton Oilers: Elias Lindholm. This was the single-tightest vote on the board, with Lindholm just squeaking past Nurse in voting. Edmonton adds a high-quality centre, but not size, with this pick.

8. Buffalo Sabres: Darnell Nurse. Nurse falls to the eighth spot, narrowly behind Lindholm but ahead of Shinkaruk by a mile. Buffalo adds a massive defenceman who can play the game and brings snarl.

9. New Jersey Devils: Hunter Shinkaruk. New Jersey had a lot of options here and this was by no means unanimous, but Shinkaruk – the smallish WHL winger known for speed and goal-scoring – was the final choice of our readers.

10. Dallas Stars: Rasmus Ristolainen. Ristolainen ranked significantly higher than 10th overall on some charts, and captures the final spot in our top-10, but not easily. He faced significant challenges from a number of players just outside – in particular Nikita Zadorov, Bo Horvat and Max Domi.

Selections 11-20

Unlike yesterday, today there will be no ranking of the players involved; they are presented in alphabetical order. The scouting reports are my own and are intended as summaries of other sources, including TSN, The Hockey News, Hockey Prospectus, Future Considerations as well as others.

Pavel Buchnevich (KHL: 12GP, 1-1-2). Hands and hockey sense stand out as superb, and he certainly has top-six talent in the NHL. His skating gets mixed reviews – Future Considerations loves that part of his game, but Corey Pronman quotes one scout who describes it as only average. The KHL factor is another consideration, as is his lack of bulk. This is a player who could go anywhere in the draft: Corey Pronman has him at 17, while he doesn’t crack the top-100 of The Hockey News.

Andre Burakovsky (SWE2: 43GP, 4-7-11). The 6’1” Burakovsky gets top marks for his vision in the offensive zone and his skating, and he’s seen as a player with a potentially massive offensive upside. His physical game is hit and miss, and his defensive positioning could apparently be improved upon.

Max Domi (OHL: 64GP, 39-48-87). Smallish winger is an “offensive dynamo” and gets pegged by The Hockey News as a power forward despite generally being listed at 5’9” or 5’10” because he plays such a fearless game (he’s also expected to play at 200 pounds or more at the NHL level). His effort level is questioned by some, and Future Considerations says that “self-control and maturity are still a work in progress.”

Adam Erne (QMJHL: 68GP, 28-44-72). The winger is a good skater, he’s strong on the puck, and he has goal-scoring ability. He isn’t seen as a strong offensive player otherwise, and he isn’t a high-end player in any category, but he has a well-rounded skillset. One scout The Hockey News quoted indicated that fitness might be an issue right now, but that he had potential to be even better if he his conditioning improved.

Zachary Fucale (QMJHL: 45-5-3, 0.909 SV%). The less-heralded teammate of Nathan MacKinnon and Jonathan Drouin is still without question the consensus top goalie of the 2013 Draft. He has solid size and is seen as positionally sound and economical rather than flashy. Was a first-team QMJHL all-star.

Frederik Gauthier (QMJHL: 62GP, 22-38-60). A 6’5” centre who skates well for his size, Gautheir gets good grades as a defensive forward and an intelligent player. What he lacks is a willingness to play a tough physical game, and his offence is open to question.

Robert Hagg (SWE Jr.: 28GP, 11-13-24). A 6’2” defenceman who also played 27 games in Sweden’s men’s league (picking up one assist), Hagg is a high-end skater with excellent vision and passing ability, a hard shot and a competent physical game. His own-zone work gets mixed reviews.

Ryan Hartman (OHL: 56GP, 23-37-60). Hartman plays a complete game on right wing: he hits, he scores and he defends. An above average skater, the only things keeping Hartman from going earlier are a combination of a) below average size (5’11”, 180 pounds) for such a physical player and b) questions about how his offensive ceiling is in the NHL.

Bo Horvat (OHL: 67GP, 32-28-60). Horvat’s trending upward since the NHL Numbers consensus rankings because he can do it all. He’s tough, plays a 200-foot game, scores goals and skates, too. The only question is how high is ceiling is offensively.

Morgan Klimchuk (WHL: 72GP, 36-40-76). A good offensive player who puts as much effort in on the backcheck as he does while scoring. Klimchuk is a good skater, can pass and shoot with equal ability and thinks the game well at both ends of the ice. On the downside, the left wing isn’t overly big and doesn’t add much physically.

Curtis Lazar (WHL: 72GP, 38-23-61). Lazar gets high marks for character and defensive play; he’s also seen as good skater and a safe pick. The question is how much offence he will generate in the NHL, because despite strong goal-scoring numbers he is seen by some as a player who lacks the creativity to be a top-six forward in the NHL. Read more at Oilers Nation.

Artturi Lehkonen (FIN: 45GP, 14-16-30). Lehkonen is not only a pure goal-scorer with fantastic numbers, but scouts rave about his hockey sense. He plays either wing, has good vision but is primarily a shooter, and despite being undersized (roughly 5’10”, 155 pounds) he has plenty of grit to his game. Corey Pronman notes he suffered from concussion problems this season.

Anthony Mantha (QMJHL: 67GP, 50-39-89). The 6’4” winger skates well and is a one-shot scorer, but he doesn’t play the physical game scouts would like to see. He’s also at the old end of the draft curve (he missed being eligible for the 2012 Draft by less than a weak) and outside of his shot he’s not seen as overly creative offensively by the consensus.

Samuel Morin (QMJHL: 46GP, 4-12-16). Morin is listed at either 6’6” or 6’7”, depending on the source, and aside from the fact that he’s massive the most remarkable thing about him is that he can skate. His offensive upside gets mixed reviews – the point totals suggest he’ll strictly be a stay-at-home guy in the NHL – and so does his hockey sense, with some praising is defensive game and others questioning his positioning. Plays a physical brand of hockey.

Josh Morrissey (WHL: 70GP, 15-32-47). Size is the issue here – the WHL defenceman is listed at 5’11”, 182 pounds. Otherwise there is a lot to like: he’s smart, he’s an excellent skater, his offensive tools are good and he relishes playing a physical game.

Mirco Muller (WHL: 63GP, 6-25-31). Jumping between scouting reports, I started feeling whiplash – there simply is no consensus on this guy’s ultimate ceiling and there is significant disagreement over how good he is now; some love him, some don’t like him at all. What is known is that he’s a 6’4” defender with at least solid puck skills, good skating, smarts, and the need to bulk up. Some project him as high-end complete defenceman, others say he’ll be steady in his own end but nothing special.

Ryan Pulock (WHL: 61GP, 14-31-45). Nobody doubts his elite shot, and Pulock has a strong puck-moving abilities, too. The trouble is his size and skating both fall into the average range, and there are mixed reports on his defensive play, which seems to be solid but unexceptional.

Kerby Rychel (OHL: 68GP, 40-47-87). A power winger with decent size, good bloodlines (his father is former NHL’er Warren Rychel), a strong physical game and outstanding scoring totals, Rychel is somehow not in the upper tier of the 2013 Draft Class. A big part of the reason is skating: it’s often criticized and seen as only average-ish. Beyond that, he’s more of a meat-and-potatoes generator of offence than overly creative, which has some wondering how high his ceiling is in the NHL.

Shea Theodore (WHL: 71GP, 19-31-50). A 6’2” defenceman who patterns his game after players like Erik Karlsson and Mike Green, Theodore’s skating, passing and shot give him the potential to be an impact NHL defenceman. He is, however, likely some distance away from realizing that potential – he lacks physical strength and his defensive game is a work in progress.

Alexander Wennberg (SWE2: 46GP, 14-18-32). 6’1” forward can play either wing or centre; he skates well, has good offensive tools and hockey sense that makes him both a threat to score and a good defensive forward. He needs to add bulk to his frame.

Nikita Zadorov (OHL: 63GP, 6-19-25). Another big defenceman (6’4”, 200 pounds according to the NHL site; most media outlets list him at 6’5”, 230 pounds), Zadorov is seen as a bit of a project. He’s a dominant physical player and extremely strong, and he fares well enough in other areas – he skates well given his size, makes a reasonable first pass – to be of real interest. The trouble is that while he has a lot of tools they haven’t come together yet; he’s raw defensively and lacks high-end offensive upside. If it all comes together, though, he could be an elite shutdown defender.

Valentin Zykov (QMJHL: 67GP, 40-35-75). A power winger with significant bulk for his age (he’s generally listed at either 6’ or 6’1” but 205+ pounds), Zykov is known for a willingness to go to the net with the puck, win battles along the boards, and backcheck defensively. Given that his skating gets middling marks, he’s essentially the reverse of the traditional Russian stereotype.

Voting

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Jonathan Willis is a freelance writer. He currently works for Oilers Nation, Sportsnet, the Edmonton Journal and Bleacher Report. He's co-written three books and worked for myriad websites, including Grantland, ESPN, The Score, and Hockey Prospectus. He was previously the founder and managing editor of Copper & Blue.
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#1 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 10:21AM
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****ing is frowned upon now?

Tried the good ol' fashion F*ST and the comment wasn't posted...

#OmarkSadFace

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#2 DonEnrico
June 13 2013, 10:27AM
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Terrible news!

http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hockeysverige.se%2Farticle%2F14515840%2Fedmontontalang-misstanks-ha-omkommit

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#4 geoilersgist
June 13 2013, 10:37AM
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Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy! wrote:

****ing is frowned upon now?

Tried the good ol' fashion F*ST and the comment wasn't posted...

#OmarkSadFace

I know. Wanye needs to get to the bottom of this problem ASAP.

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#5 Kent Wilson
June 13 2013, 10:37AM
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A pretty reasonable top-10.

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#6 Will
June 13 2013, 10:38AM
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Ugh, good job putting this together Willis, but honestly after 7, I have a hard time caring.

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#7 aeiouY
June 13 2013, 10:42AM
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NURSE OR BUST

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#8 oilers2k14
June 13 2013, 10:46AM
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I'm gonna go off the board here with number 15 being Connor Hurley..not in who I think will be picked 15th but where he should've been when we look back three years from now. Actually I think he could end up being a top ten quality player but I'll put him at 15 just to be safe.. Very talented, Smart player..youngest in the draft and he's got a lot of room to fill out..over six feet already but pretty light at around 180.

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#11 Will
June 13 2013, 11:03AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

The thing that struck me was how reasonable MacTavish's point about trading down seems after researching the depth picks for this draft. There is going to be quality available midway through round two.

Maybe I should correct myself, after what the Oilers end up doing with the seventh pick, is where I stop caring. I'm fine with trading down, but it either has to upgrade an important position like 2nd line LW or 2nd line C, or we have to get talent outright such as a top pairing D man.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, our first and Gagner for Philly's first and Couturier. I know Philly is bully on him but I think this benefits both teams greatly. Plus it won't be such a reach to pick Hovart, Lazar, or Gauthier at Philly's spot, giving us good depth up the middle for years to come.

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#12 Soft Hands McSteeley - FIST Movement
June 13 2013, 11:06AM
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Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy! wrote:

****ing is frowned upon now?

Tried the good ol' fashion F*ST and the comment wasn't posted...

#OmarkSadFace

Someone needs to give the Bronte5000 a kick again

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#13 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 11:07AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

The thing that struck me was how reasonable MacTavish's point about trading down seems after researching the depth picks for this draft. There is going to be quality available midway through round two.

Does this mean Calgary may get three quality players similar to the ones drafted in 2003???

That's not good. Not good at all!

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#14 TonyT
June 13 2013, 11:11AM
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RIP Kristians Pelss.

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#15 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 11:15AM
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Jonathan Willis wrote:

Will wrote:

Ugh, good job putting this together Willis, but honestly after 7, I have a hard time caring.

The thing that struck me was how reasonable MacTavish's point about trading down seems after researching the depth picks for this draft. There is going to be quality available midway through round two.

I have a hard time caring at 7 if the best we can do is Nurse or Nichushkin. I really hope MacT trades the pick if that's the case.

I really liked Couturier in 2011 draft. I've never wanted a man so bad for so long......

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#16 Ducey
June 13 2013, 11:16AM
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The Oilers should go with a Defenseman at #7. I don't like Monahan (he seems like MAP v.2) and they can get the second best Dman at 7.

There are lot of C's available that they should be able to pick with their second rounder and they can take a goalie with their other second rounder (from ANA).

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#17 Tyler
June 13 2013, 11:23AM
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If the rumours are true. I would do gagner for couturier and 11th in heart beat. I'd also do 7th, to T.O for Gardiner and 21st. I'd then try to package up 11 to try to get Hartnell from PHI. He'd be perfect. Conversely, a combo of Hovart/Lazar and Robert Hagg with those picks would be great. That's bold and it improves both D and C depth now, and in the future. IF those rumours have any weight. Not bad ideas, but i doubt insider info on those ones.

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#18 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 11:23AM
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Ducey wrote:

The Oilers should go with a Defenseman at #7. I don't like Monahan (he seems like MAP v.2) and they can get the second best Dman at 7.

There are lot of C's available that they should be able to pick with their second rounder and they can take a goalie with their other second rounder (from ANA).

I disagree with this.

There are no defensemen in this draft that project to be that 30 min/game cornerstone d-man every team is looking for.

Why waste a 7 overall on a decent first/second pairing d-man that won't put up a lot of points and won't make an impact for 3 - 4 years?

I have a faith in MacT right now. I doubt he drafts a d-man at 7. In fact, I'm willing to make a bet on that.

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#19 Lochenzo
June 13 2013, 11:37AM
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MacT was a depth centre on the dynasty teams. And he also coached a team that was deep at centre to the SCF 2006. As you see from the Hawks/Bruins game last night, line matching is a heck of a lot easier when you have centres that can win draws. I expect MacT to pound the table hard for centres.

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#20 Willi P
June 13 2013, 11:41AM
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Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy! wrote:

Jonathan Willis wrote:

Will wrote:

Ugh, good job putting this together Willis, but honestly after 7, I have a hard time caring.

The thing that struck me was how reasonable MacTavish's point about trading down seems after researching the depth picks for this draft. There is going to be quality available midway through round two.

I have a hard time caring at 7 if the best we can do is Nurse or Nichushkin. I really hope MacT trades the pick if that's the case.

I really liked Couturier in 2011 draft. I've never wanted a man so bad for so long......

"I've never wanted a man so bad for so long......"

ewwwww, gross.

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#21 Cody anderson
June 13 2013, 11:42AM
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While Nurse projects to be the kind of Nasty Dman I would love to have I think we are far deeper on D prospects then big skilled forwards.

I look at one of Barkov, Nichushkin, Monahan, or even Lindholm as my 7th overall selection. As many have said Coutourier would look good here and so would Gardner. I would be excited by either of those moves.

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#22 The Beaker
June 13 2013, 11:59AM
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@Tyler

You seriously think Gagner could get us Couturier + the 11th? Actually you think Gagner+ would get us Couturier and Hartnell?

Must be some good stuff you're on.

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#23 WhattaMike
June 13 2013, 12:06PM
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I sincerely hope it turns out to be not K. Pelss although my heart still goes out to whoever it is and their family. I will offer that I was so shocked about the news of this. If it is Pelss, to his family I offer now my condolences.

Back to the draft, I had MacKinnon going 1st to Colarado with Jones 2nd at Flo, then had Nichushkin going 3rd to TB then Barkov to Nash at 4th. I then put Nurse picked at #5 because of Carolina's need for defenceman and his being extremely marektable due to his uncle (McNabb)and father being in football.

Drouin 6th goes with Calgary. The reason of Drouin posibly going lower is his size although many in NHL history have succeeded greatly despite size issues.

The Oilers then get Monahan at #7. My other choice, even if Nurse was available would be Lindholm.

Now to continue... I would choose:

Ristolainen at 8th - Buf, Bo Horvat to NJD at #9, Shinkaruk to Dallas at #10, Zadorov to Philly at #11, Pulock to Pho at #12, Domi to Winn at #13, Weinberg to CBJ at #14, Zykov to NYI at #15, Mantha to Buf at #16, Lazar to Ott at #17, Detroit takes Jacob Rose at #18, CBJ takes Fucale at #19, Saan Jose goes for Kerby Rychel at #20....

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#24 BurningSensation
June 13 2013, 12:15PM
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Will wrote:

Maybe I should correct myself, after what the Oilers end up doing with the seventh pick, is where I stop caring. I'm fine with trading down, but it either has to upgrade an important position like 2nd line LW or 2nd line C, or we have to get talent outright such as a top pairing D man.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, our first and Gagner for Philly's first and Couturier. I know Philly is bully on him but I think this benefits both teams greatly. Plus it won't be such a reach to pick Hovart, Lazar, or Gauthier at Philly's spot, giving us good depth up the middle for years to come.

I've said this before but it bears repeating, Calgary and Edmonton fans have to stop with these trade fantasies that don't involve actual high-end assets miraculously landing you a high-end asset.

There is nobody so interesting at #7 available that Philly would ever deal Couturier and their 1st for the #7 pick and Gagner. It just isn't going to happen. No, throwing in Hemsky isn't going to do it either. No, piling on the Maricin's, and Arcebello's isn't going to change Holmstrom's mind.

In the case of Edmonton, the only way to move up (or to get Couturier) is to trade one of the big 6 (Hall, Eberle, RNH, Schultz-the-good, Yakupov or Klefbom). Period.

All speculation that anybody will give you anything of superior value for Gagner should just stop. It's embarassing.

In Calgary's case the same thing needs to be said for moving up to #4 by moving the other 2 picks, and Cammalleri. Nobody is going to give us a franchise player Cammalleri. No, adding Tanguay (our version of Hemsky) to the deal will not make it better.

That all said, I can see scenarios where either team moves up, if Edmonton flips one of their big 6, or if Calgary puts Baertschi/Brodie and a package of 1sts together, they could indeed move up or make a big trade for an impact young player.

But it won't be for Gagner, or Hemsky, or Tanguay or Cammalleri.

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#25 RKD
June 13 2013, 12:23PM
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Edmonton Oilers draft prospect Kristians Pelss has reportedly drowned in his Latvian homeland, according to online news website, Apollo.

The report claims that Pelss leaped to his death Tuesday from a bridge in the capital, Riga.

Latvian Hockey Federation spokesman Maris Gorbunov told Apollo he could neither confirm nor deny reports.

Straight from TSN.

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#27 RKD
June 13 2013, 12:29PM
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If MacT is serious about moving out guys like Horcoff and Hemsky what's to stop Feaster from shipping out Tangs or Cammy?

I mean we can hang on to these guys until we miss the playoffs for a few more years then end up trading them we would get less in return down the road. It doesn't have to be both guys either. You don't vets leading the teams in the finals right now.

I hope no one before us snags Monahan before us, some teams may pass up on Barkov because of the Russian issue.

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#28 Lofty
June 13 2013, 12:35PM
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@Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!

Gotta keep in mind the crap shoot that the draft is. Picking 7th is the 4th or 5th best pick the oil have had in the last 30 years aside from the last 3 1st overalls. The organization needs to select an NHL'er at #7. No matter the position of the player, a top 15 pick needs to add a future roster player. These picks are the difference between having a good team for a year or two and having a perennial playoff contender. Entry level years are so much more important in the salary cap world.

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#29 BurningSensation
June 13 2013, 12:52PM
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@RKD

"I hope no one before us snags Monahan before us, some teams may pass up on Barkov because of the Russian issue."

Barkov has a Russian born father, but he is all Finn. There is as far as I know, no 'Russian issue' with Barkov.

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#30 Will
June 13 2013, 12:56PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

I've said this before but it bears repeating, Calgary and Edmonton fans have to stop with these trade fantasies that don't involve actual high-end assets miraculously landing you a high-end asset.

There is nobody so interesting at #7 available that Philly would ever deal Couturier and their 1st for the #7 pick and Gagner. It just isn't going to happen. No, throwing in Hemsky isn't going to do it either. No, piling on the Maricin's, and Arcebello's isn't going to change Holmstrom's mind.

In the case of Edmonton, the only way to move up (or to get Couturier) is to trade one of the big 6 (Hall, Eberle, RNH, Schultz-the-good, Yakupov or Klefbom). Period.

All speculation that anybody will give you anything of superior value for Gagner should just stop. It's embarassing.

In Calgary's case the same thing needs to be said for moving up to #4 by moving the other 2 picks, and Cammalleri. Nobody is going to give us a franchise player Cammalleri. No, adding Tanguay (our version of Hemsky) to the deal will not make it better.

That all said, I can see scenarios where either team moves up, if Edmonton flips one of their big 6, or if Calgary puts Baertschi/Brodie and a package of 1sts together, they could indeed move up or make a big trade for an impact young player.

But it won't be for Gagner, or Hemsky, or Tanguay or Cammalleri.

In what world is a rookie of two years who has yet to crack 30 points and a plus rating in the NHL, who plays a third line checking role, and only wins 43.4% of his faceoffs to date, higher value than a six year NHL veteran who is only 24 years old, who has yet to have less than 40 + points in a full season, who can play the wing, who is shorter but listed at the same weight of 191lb, and has the same faceoff win percentage over a longer career?

I know Philly likes Sean and they think he's the future and whatever, but he has not shown he is going to be that guy with his point totals, plus minus, or face off percentage. So how or why is this guy such superior value for Gagner? Potential? Because he might be better at some point? Pahleese. If you're a GM and you have a chance to upgrade at the centre position with a proven 6 year 40 + point guy who is also still getting better and better as his points this year showed, and you don't do it because the rookie you've had for two years has been okay, then you would make a terrible GM.

This trade does benefit both teams, especially if Monahan or Nichushkin is available. It's clear Philly has enough Simmonds and not enough Briers and Girouxs. They need talent and getting the 7th pick plus an upgrade of scoring talent help their team. Plus Gagner gets to play with size which is likely to help his defensive game. And Couturier gets to come here and play a larger role with some skill, which will help his scoring totals.

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#31 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 12:57PM
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@Lofty

I totally agree with you. The draft is the best way to add value to your team in a cap world.

But if this draft is as good as people say it is, I don't want the Oilers to pass on an effective center for a shut-down d-man at 7th overall.

Trade up to get a better player or trade down to get two similar players. Just don't waste a quality pick on 'Robyn Regehr'.

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#32 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 01:03PM
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Will wrote:

In what world is a rookie of two years who has yet to crack 30 points and a plus rating in the NHL, who plays a third line checking role, and only wins 43.4% of his faceoffs to date, higher value than a six year NHL veteran who is only 24 years old, who has yet to have less than 40 + points in a full season, who can play the wing, who is shorter but listed at the same weight of 191lb, and has the same faceoff win percentage over a longer career?

I know Philly likes Sean and they think he's the future and whatever, but he has not shown he is going to be that guy with his point totals, plus minus, or face off percentage. So how or why is this guy such superior value for Gagner? Potential? Because he might be better at some point? Pahleese. If you're a GM and you have a chance to upgrade at the centre position with a proven 6 year 40 + point guy who is also still getting better and better as his points this year showed, and you don't do it because the rookie you've had for two years has been okay, then you would make a terrible GM.

This trade does benefit both teams, especially if Monahan or Nichushkin is available. It's clear Philly has enough Simmonds and not enough Briers and Girouxs. They need talent and getting the 7th pick plus an upgrade of scoring talent help their team. Plus Gagner gets to play with size which is likely to help his defensive game. And Couturier gets to come here and play a larger role with some skill, which will help his scoring totals.

Reality check:

Couturier is much more valuable than Gagner.

Don't just compare points. It's embarrassing considering you live in a big Canadian hockey market (I'm assuming.... or am I? dun dun dun...).

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#33 RKD
June 13 2013, 01:09PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

"I hope no one before us snags Monahan before us, some teams may pass up on Barkov because of the Russian issue."

Barkov has a Russian born father, but he is all Finn. There is as far as I know, no 'Russian issue' with Barkov.

I got them mixed up, I meant Nichushkin.

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#34 The Man
June 13 2013, 01:09PM
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I am hearing Cammy, Backlund and 22nd overall to Buffalo for Myers, Vanak and a 2nd rounder....

Seems pretty good to me... I think it is time to cut ties with Backlund so this trade is good for Calgary.... If not, the Flames should entertain trading Backlund along with a later 1st rounder to move up a few spots.... they might have to sign him first at 'a home town discount' but none the less they should cut ties with him.

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#35 Zipdot
June 13 2013, 01:10PM
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There's an article about Kristians on EJ right now. It appears confirmed, unfortunately.

"Arturs Vaiders, sports editor for Diena, a leading daily in this Baltic Sea coast nation. “He has died … (under) still unexplained circumstances. Information is that he has drowned and unfortunately this information is confirmed.”"

Man, that is an utter tragedy.

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#36 BurningSensation
June 13 2013, 01:14PM
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Will wrote:

In what world is a rookie of two years who has yet to crack 30 points and a plus rating in the NHL, who plays a third line checking role, and only wins 43.4% of his faceoffs to date, higher value than a six year NHL veteran who is only 24 years old, who has yet to have less than 40 + points in a full season, who can play the wing, who is shorter but listed at the same weight of 191lb, and has the same faceoff win percentage over a longer career?

I know Philly likes Sean and they think he's the future and whatever, but he has not shown he is going to be that guy with his point totals, plus minus, or face off percentage. So how or why is this guy such superior value for Gagner? Potential? Because he might be better at some point? Pahleese. If you're a GM and you have a chance to upgrade at the centre position with a proven 6 year 40 + point guy who is also still getting better and better as his points this year showed, and you don't do it because the rookie you've had for two years has been okay, then you would make a terrible GM.

This trade does benefit both teams, especially if Monahan or Nichushkin is available. It's clear Philly has enough Simmonds and not enough Briers and Girouxs. They need talent and getting the 7th pick plus an upgrade of scoring talent help their team. Plus Gagner gets to play with size which is likely to help his defensive game. And Couturier gets to come here and play a larger role with some skill, which will help his scoring totals.

Couturier literally took on the toughest minutes a center can face and holds his own. Gagner pads his stats against the soft parade and on the powerplay but continually gets worked over by even mediocre opposition 5v5.

It's not even close. Couturier is bigger, stronger, younger, cheaper and brings more to the table than Gagner.

In fact the whole point of your trade exercise is that he is markedly better than Gagner - or else why would the Flyers be getting back the #7 for their #15?

Gagner is the posterchild for players who produce points that are 'empty calories', and get killed everywhere else. I'd be surprised if Edmonton could get a 2nd rnd pick for him straight up, let alone a deal that brings in a Couturier.

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#37 Ducey
June 13 2013, 01:16PM
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Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy! wrote:

Reality check:

Couturier is much more valuable than Gagner.

Don't just compare points. It's embarrassing considering you live in a big Canadian hockey market (I'm assuming.... or am I? dun dun dun...).

I suggest dealing with his argument instead of just attacking him.

I myself have some concerns about why someone would think Couturier > Gagner. He has 4 inches and a few pounds on Sam but otherwise Sam kills him in every boxcar there is - including PIM's - which show that Couturier doesn't use his size.

I am aware that Couturier does fine in some advanced stats but that doesn't change the fact he doesn't score enough and isn't going to scare anyone.

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#38 piscera.infada
June 13 2013, 01:21PM
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@The Man

I will burn down the 'Dome if this happens - but that's just me.

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#39 BurningSensation
June 13 2013, 01:22PM
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The Man wrote:

I am hearing Cammy, Backlund and 22nd overall to Buffalo for Myers, Vanak and a 2nd rounder....

Seems pretty good to me... I think it is time to cut ties with Backlund so this trade is good for Calgary.... If not, the Flames should entertain trading Backlund along with a later 1st rounder to move up a few spots.... they might have to sign him first at 'a home town discount' but none the less they should cut ties with him.

That is a very interesting deal, but I don't know how much I like it.

Vanek is younger and better than Cammalleri, but his contract is worse.

Myers is about the same age (a year older?) than Backlund, both play difficult key positions (C and D), but Myers had a monster rookie season and then has slowly regressed since, while Backlund has been on a steady if slow upwards trajectory. Myers is on a big ticket contract already, while Backlund is still going to be on very affordable deals.

Backlund could be an average or slightly better #2, but if Myers can get his game together he could still be a dominant #1 blueliner. I think the homerun upside is with getting Myers.

Sliding from 22 to the 2nd rnd hurts though.

All in all, I would call it a solid trade for Calgary if it goes through, but also one that would be sure to ignite the fanbase..

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#40 Next up, is Connor McJesus.
June 13 2013, 01:23PM
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Not big on adding another soft euro to the lineup in two yrs if this kid is even ready by then. Rather have the Paul Bunyan type in Darnell Nurse. What team couldn't use a Rod Langway type on their back end. I'm sure he'd land somewhere in between that Rod Langway, Chris Pronger type D'man.

Edmonton needs to move up if they're going to take a centerman, especially with Monahans foot quickness issues. Had enough of these soft over inflated euro types in Lindholm. First rounders are your best shot at elite potential players, not future bottom sixers.

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#41 Tyler
June 13 2013, 01:28PM
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The Beaker wrote:

You seriously think Gagner could get us Couturier + the 11th? Actually you think Gagner+ would get us Couturier and Hartnell?

Must be some good stuff you're on.

Notice how I said, IF rumors are true, and I really doubt they have actual insider info on these. Some of the sources are out of T.O though, (blogs etc.) for these trades. The only embarrassing thing about that post is the fact that you can barely read well enough to understand it. Of course, you'd do that trade in heart beat, they're a great deal, FOR US. But if someone outside of Oilersville is dreaming these sorts of things up (unequal of not - which i feel they are as well), for ASSETS that we have, it speaks to some perceptions out there about the types of things we have to work with and the strength that we carry towards getting quality. This is other fans proposing to fleece their own teams for what we have. Its much better than what we've heard the past few years, Omark plus for Weber trash, coming from Oil fans. Weber for Omark plus coming from their mouth sounds a lot sweeter.

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#42 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 01:41PM
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Ducey wrote:

I suggest dealing with his argument instead of just attacking him.

I myself have some concerns about why someone would think Couturier > Gagner. He has 4 inches and a few pounds on Sam but otherwise Sam kills him in every boxcar there is - including PIM's - which show that Couturier doesn't use his size.

I am aware that Couturier does fine in some advanced stats but that doesn't change the fact he doesn't score enough and isn't going to scare anyone.

I was trying to be funny.

Read BurningSensation's post above. It's a very real argument why Couturier is much more valuable than Gagner.

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#43 Bicepus Maximus - Huge fan boy!
June 13 2013, 01:44PM
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Next up, is Connor McJesus. wrote:

Not big on adding another soft euro to the lineup in two yrs if this kid is even ready by then. Rather have the Paul Bunyan type in Darnell Nurse. What team couldn't use a Rod Langway type on their back end. I'm sure he'd land somewhere in between that Rod Langway, Chris Pronger type D'man.

Edmonton needs to move up if they're going to take a centerman, especially with Monahans foot quickness issues. Had enough of these soft over inflated euro types in Lindholm. First rounders are your best shot at elite potential players, not future bottom sixers.

I can't tell if you're kidding..................................................................

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#44 WhattaMike
June 13 2013, 01:47PM
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If the Oilers are gonna deal with Philly I would want Brayden Schenn over Couturier due to skating skills...as of today...not in yrs to come. I believe Schenn has more grit and talent than Couturier...Schenn scores more too in the area Gagner does.

Trading Gagner plus the 7th for Couturier and the 11th today won't change how next season goes...as Gagner did score more than 20 pts to Couturier.

If there was to be a trade...I would then look at now trading Hartikainen, Gernat plus the 7th for Schenn and the 11th (use that for Horvat).

Not sure though that I would even trade cause Horvat will be there at #7 if the Oil dont get Monahan and/or dont want Lindholm. The Oil have great future defencxe prospects...they need centre (two centres chosen in this draft yr plus a top goalie prospect as well)

Philly wants big and tough back...and it's defence they want to have more so now.

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#45 Will
June 13 2013, 01:48PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

Couturier literally took on the toughest minutes a center can face and holds his own. Gagner pads his stats against the soft parade and on the powerplay but continually gets worked over by even mediocre opposition 5v5.

It's not even close. Couturier is bigger, stronger, younger, cheaper and brings more to the table than Gagner.

In fact the whole point of your trade exercise is that he is markedly better than Gagner - or else why would the Flyers be getting back the #7 for their #15?

Gagner is the posterchild for players who produce points that are 'empty calories', and get killed everywhere else. I'd be surprised if Edmonton could get a 2nd rnd pick for him straight up, let alone a deal that brings in a Couturier.

You realize you're just saying things right. Bigger, stronger, younger? Are these things reflected at all in the score column? The fact that he's younger, is that what he brings to the table? Oh sorry I forgot old man Gagner can't skate with the youngins anymore. As much as I hate arguing with DSF, at least he brings some numbers to back up his argument (albeit cherry picked, but evidence non the less). You are just saying stuff with nothing to back it up.

First of all, he was fourth on his team for facing the toughest competition, whereas Gagner was 5th on the Oilers. So don't tell me Couturier faced a barrage of the most difficult lines in the universe, while Gagner got nothing but a soft parade. Gagner got his position in competition 2nd line scoring. Likely he would have faced more difficult but I would imagine they weren't keen on shoving his linemate Yak out against the league's most difficult.

Second, Couturier didn't have great line mates, he's a player that needs skill to be good, not a player that makes those around him better, which fits perfectly in my trade scenario that would have him playing with skill like Yak, and have Gagner going to make those around him a bit better and more dangerous.

Fine if you disagree, but don't just say he's this and that, which have no numbers to back them up, all that is opinion. And in this case it's misinformed opinion because all your points aren't right.

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#46 SmellOfVictory
June 13 2013, 02:03PM
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The Man wrote:

I am hearing Cammy, Backlund and 22nd overall to Buffalo for Myers, Vanak and a 2nd rounder....

Seems pretty good to me... I think it is time to cut ties with Backlund so this trade is good for Calgary.... If not, the Flames should entertain trading Backlund along with a later 1st rounder to move up a few spots.... they might have to sign him first at 'a home town discount' but none the less they should cut ties with him.

Mind if I ask why you think it's time to cut ties with the best forward on the team, who happens to be just about to enter the meat of his prime?

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#47 keilan
June 13 2013, 02:13PM
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BurningSensation wrote:

Couturier literally took on the toughest minutes a center can face and holds his own. Gagner pads his stats against the soft parade and on the powerplay but continually gets worked over by even mediocre opposition 5v5.

It's not even close. Couturier is bigger, stronger, younger, cheaper and brings more to the table than Gagner.

In fact the whole point of your trade exercise is that he is markedly better than Gagner - or else why would the Flyers be getting back the #7 for their #15?

Gagner is the posterchild for players who produce points that are 'empty calories', and get killed everywhere else. I'd be surprised if Edmonton could get a 2nd rnd pick for him straight up, let alone a deal that brings in a Couturier.

Honestly I could not care less if the Oilers got a bag-of-pucks for Gagner but I simply can’t watch another year of him wearing the Oiler colors.

Makes me nauseous when he talks about himself working towards being an elite centre, then stands still in the defensive zone clutching onto is peewee hockey-stick.

A perfect example of someone playing in the show two years before they should.

Gagner for Couturier is pretty funny

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#48 aloudoun
June 13 2013, 02:18PM
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Myers has a NTC until 2016-17 and has already been paid 18 million of his 38.5 million contract...

Having said that its not a terrible deal. I just dont see why Calgary would trade a center when we are in desperate need of them.

Swap Hodgson with Vanek and you have a deal ;)

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#49 BurningSensation
June 13 2013, 02:32PM
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Will wrote:

You realize you're just saying things right. Bigger, stronger, younger? Are these things reflected at all in the score column? The fact that he's younger, is that what he brings to the table? Oh sorry I forgot old man Gagner can't skate with the youngins anymore. As much as I hate arguing with DSF, at least he brings some numbers to back up his argument (albeit cherry picked, but evidence non the less). You are just saying stuff with nothing to back it up.

First of all, he was fourth on his team for facing the toughest competition, whereas Gagner was 5th on the Oilers. So don't tell me Couturier faced a barrage of the most difficult lines in the universe, while Gagner got nothing but a soft parade. Gagner got his position in competition 2nd line scoring. Likely he would have faced more difficult but I would imagine they weren't keen on shoving his linemate Yak out against the league's most difficult.

Second, Couturier didn't have great line mates, he's a player that needs skill to be good, not a player that makes those around him better, which fits perfectly in my trade scenario that would have him playing with skill like Yak, and have Gagner going to make those around him a bit better and more dangerous.

Fine if you disagree, but don't just say he's this and that, which have no numbers to back them up, all that is opinion. And in this case it's misinformed opinion because all your points aren't right.

Fine, let's get it on then.

- Couturier is trusted with a preponderence of defensive zone assignments and tilts the ice the other way.

- Couturier takes more zone starts in the defensive end for the Flyers than any other player.

- Couturier was tasked with over 19% of his teams total face-offs (an increase from his rookie year).

- Couturier had the 4th toughest minutes for his team, and he was dragging around legendart snipers like Zach Renaldo and other scrubs while doing it.

- Scroll down to the bottom and see how Couturier's efforts affect superstar competititon like Malkin; http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1509&withagainst=true&season=2008-12&sit=5v5close

In short, he's ridiculously good at stopping the opposing teams best center.

- Couturier doesn't even get regular second unit powerplay time to pad his stats.

- Gagner, by contrast, gets obliterated in the advanced stats department. In particular the +/- On60 of -1.02 indicates that whatever the quality of competition he faced, they were schooling him.

- Couturier is only 20 and has lots of room to grow. Gagner has essentially hit his peak years (24-27) and is still a 40 point player who gets killed by tough competition.

In short, these two players could not be less alike. One is a very good 2-way center with upside, the other is Sam Gagner.

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#50 DSF
June 13 2013, 02:41PM
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Will wrote:

You realize you're just saying things right. Bigger, stronger, younger? Are these things reflected at all in the score column? The fact that he's younger, is that what he brings to the table? Oh sorry I forgot old man Gagner can't skate with the youngins anymore. As much as I hate arguing with DSF, at least he brings some numbers to back up his argument (albeit cherry picked, but evidence non the less). You are just saying stuff with nothing to back it up.

First of all, he was fourth on his team for facing the toughest competition, whereas Gagner was 5th on the Oilers. So don't tell me Couturier faced a barrage of the most difficult lines in the universe, while Gagner got nothing but a soft parade. Gagner got his position in competition 2nd line scoring. Likely he would have faced more difficult but I would imagine they weren't keen on shoving his linemate Yak out against the league's most difficult.

Second, Couturier didn't have great line mates, he's a player that needs skill to be good, not a player that makes those around him better, which fits perfectly in my trade scenario that would have him playing with skill like Yak, and have Gagner going to make those around him a bit better and more dangerous.

Fine if you disagree, but don't just say he's this and that, which have no numbers to back them up, all that is opinion. And in this case it's misinformed opinion because all your points aren't right.

I went through this yesterday but it seems you didn't understand it.

Couturier faced the TOUGHEST competition among Philly centres...playing with Scott Hartnell on the 3rd line.

He started only 32.5 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone but finished in the offensive zone 44.7 percent of the time.

Gagner started 51.4 percent of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Couturier has a Corsi Rel of +2.1 meaning his team outshot the (tough) opposition while he was on the ice.

Gagner's Corsi Rel was -4.3, meaning he was consistently outshot by the softer opposition he was playing.

Sam Gagner scored 21 points at evens while Couturier scored 11

Couturier played only 1:29/G on the PP while Gagner played almost twice as much at 2:55.

If you were to take away half of Gagner's PP time, make him start in the offensive zone only 31 percent of the time AND have him play against the toughest competition, he would wilt like a week old bouquet.

If Couturier had his PP time doubled, got to start in the Ozone more than half the time AND got to play much weaker competition, I expect this would be no contest.

Bottom line is that Couturier who is THREE AND A HALF YEARS YOUNGER than Gagner, is already a much better two way hockey player.

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